Sunday, August 2, 2009


me: U THER?
Adron: zup?
...and yeah I'm here... kind of just pissing of Joseph Rose at the moment .
me: hehe...howz and u hving quite the little spat
wat about rose?
Adron: eh... it's all fun. we do what we can.
me: hehe
its good blogging!
Adron: I shouldn't have brought the union stuff up... but I love arguing/debating it none the less.
yeah true.
I'm railling Joseph Rose about that speeding article now.
Got people from across the country railling on him via Twitter.
me: got a link on the article?
Adron: not sure ... it's on his hard drive blog I think....
Also on the front page - I think - of the Friday Oregonian.
me: ill look for it
wats wrong with that?
hes right!
Adron: About the speed.
No he isn't. It's false statistics usage.
If speed was what killed then high speed rail would wreck, buses would hit 55 and everyone would die... etc.,
oh yeah. that's it.
The biggest problem I have with it is this.
When they publish shit like that they get a bunch of cops to start writing tickets... which is all fine...
but then some people say - well the speed limits should be decreased...
so we end up with something dumb like 55 mph speed limits in the entire state...
me: ok that point i can agree with
Adron: meanwhile, the REAL cause of these incidents is NEVER resolved. Which is lack of training and inattention to the road.
me: i drive the sunset everyday and see people endangering mine and everybody elses life!
Adron: exactly.
Adron: In a lot of cases people can go a LOT faster and in a lot of cases people should go a LOT slower... but people just don't know nor realize what they're doing here.
They aren't trained nor certified to even be driving half the time.
me: lol
Adron: Germany & France have tons of people driving 100+ mph and they have many less fatal incidents than us here in the US.
me: wel, ya, this is america..gotta get there ahead of everybody else
Adron: But hey... on another note... and maybe you can help me with this...
We gotta get Joseph to come out to the next transit beer meetup thing.
I'll publish something on it soon.
me: ok
Adron: I gotta take a trip to Thief River falls this next week and wehen I return I'll put something up...
me: ill help....i can send him a note telling him to show up
Adron: yeah. Cuz I think he's taking shit I'm saying to him way more personal then he needs to.
me: we got to get chris smith to go to one too!
Adron: Oh jeez. I wish. He doesn't seem to get out for anybody.
I see him every once in a while on the streetcar...
me: i know....he stays out of the lime light..\
Adron: He's probably got a ton of tidbits about stuff.
me: i bet i can pressure him to go to one
Adron: btw - U see LA is trying to jump on the streetcar bandwagon?
me: he lives near me
streetcars are GREAT for develpment...\
Adron: I'm pro-light rail - in certain places - but the streetcar I'm not gonna be happy with till we get it down in cost that is comparable to bus service or something.
me: developers love me
Adron: But LA is looking at getting streetcars from us... I think they're smoking crack.
me: they can sell condos when there is a street car
Adron: Yeah, we all used to live right up there in the same area.
me: kickback?
light rail is great to connect cities..
Adron: Not sure what the dealio is yet. I think more people are jumping on the bandwagon because of LaHood & Obama.
me: stupid for intracity
Adron: Light rail is for primary arterials that don't need heavy rail - everything else should be buses pretty much.
me: the green line is STUPID
Adron: I don't get the green line either.
me: they didnt even cut back service on the 72 bus
Adron: The #72 needs bumped up capacity badly, but I don't think anyone that uses it will be able to use the green line.
me: correct
Adron: Yeah, they serve totally different people.
me: yea but who is the green line gonna actually serve?
Adron: I think the green line will get ridership - probably good ridership - but I don't think it is going to help the #72, #9, or any of the other primary corridors that actually NEED help now.
me: well then who will the green line help? they will all not be new riders!
Adron: I honestly thing they could turn the #72 & #9 into BRT tomorrow and STILL have capacity problems because it would see a jump in ridership.
But I think that's about the only thing they can do on both lines...
me: id like to be a fly on the wall of the planner meetings
Adron: Green line will serve people primarily from west of I-205 - car commuters that drive part way in and then jump the train.
me: jump on the train to go where?
Adron: There will be some punkers and shit that rider from Clackamas up to I-205 mall maybe some points in between...
I don't think they'll see as many people traveling in the I-205 corridor as they've been estimating though.
There isn't shit out there.
me: trimet never gets new riders....its ridership is declining...wes is a failure
Adron: Kids & people will get on the green line to come downtown... some will stay in corridor...
....but I'm estimating that the largest percentile of riders initially will be morning and afternoon commuters.
me: well well see...i think its dumb
Adron: TriMet has only had minmal declines in ridership this year.
It'll pick back up.
me: empire building is what it is
Adron: Well yeah, that's what america does.
If people where actually concerned with building history and neighborhoods they would have never got rid of the streetcar system we had 100+ years ago.
Nor trashed the trolley bus extensions, or the interurbans.
me: hey....that was all about profit..the thing you like!
Adron: I thought we already had this discussion.
It was about development, profit, and mitigating electrical line costs...
Erik sent you that link.
FDR ran most of that shit clean out of business though during the 30s.
I'm gonna draw up a timeloine of all this shit sometime.
I'll tell ya honestly...
me: yea....i dunno...nobody knows whats gonna happen int the future
Adron: If they quit subsidizing auto users & roads... transit would easily cover its cost - but they gotta give us our tax monies back.
if we operated transit as a non-profit corp it'd be awesome.
We the citizens could have and create the board... vote em' in or whatever...
me: our tax monies get wasted on the militarly industrial complex and bailout out banks
Adron: leaders of the agency would be based on what we say then...
instead of the politicians.
well yeah... I'm not gonna disagree with that.
the bank problem is because the banks work as part of the Government...
me: transit should be free...period
Adron: It's the whole fractional reserve bullshit with the Federal Reserve.
Free? Well somebody, somewhere, somehow has to pay for it.
me: thats correct...the banks are screwing the whole world
Adron: Yup.
Again, not gonna disagree with ya on that.
me: yea our tax money pays for the fire dept
Adron: Well, that's the point.
Sombody is paying for the police, fire, etc.
me: hey im gonna quote you on the non profit idea
Adron: If people pay fares, we get service to where we live.
If taxes pay for it then people that have political pull get service.
It's basically what we have now.
Except it would be magnified. The only people that got a say where transit is or goes would be politicians.
me: pubic transit is never gonna make profit adron
Adron: Seriously. Even in the past a few agencies in some cities operated that way.
It did in the past. It won't now, not with funding structures. But it IS valuable enough to a city to be a profit - i.e. value to the city.
That's why it still exists at all. Cities & politicians know damn well it is valuable.
me: this is not THE AMERICA OF THE PAST
the world has completely changed over the last 50 years
Adron: Well yeah.
me: it has to be a public service....
paid for by tax dollars free for everyone
Adron: Transit has gotten really really crappy over the last 50 years.
That's fine.
Adron: But we'll get what we pay for and it'll perform as the system we let operate it.
You know damn well the Government sucks at operations and management of this sort of thing.
How much progress has transit made since under Government Authorities?
How much did it make the 50 years before?
me: I dont buy the govt sucks argument
Adron: Massive difference.
Fine - you don't have to.
me: not all govt sucks
Adron: Just look at the costs and how much we had then.
We paid ZERO taxes for it.
me: pure profit motive is not the way to go.
Adron: Look at what we got now and how much we actually pay for it.
I said non-profit.
But just get it back in our control the citizens.
me: ADRON...there were a hell of alot FEWER PEOPLE HERE THEN
Adron: Take it away from the Government.
Fewer people in Portland?
Not really.
Not in the core where the transit served. Look at the numbers.
me: 50 years agio?
Adron: Portlan is still about 400k people in the core.
Point being we had 150 miles of transit... mixed modes, cars, jitneys, etc.
me: r u saying portland had better transit 50 years ago?
Adron: We didn't pay anything for them unless you got on board.
me: can u illustrate that point somehow?
Adron: It was cleaner, more efficiently operated, ate up less city income, cost a lower percentage of individuals income...
In 1910 a streetcar fare was 5 cents. With incomes of that day and incomes of this day, when you calculate it out it was about 50% of what we pay based on income today.
The average speed of the streetcars where 12-15mph vs today's 6 mph.
Our interurbans averaged about 28-30 mph - faster than ANYTHING we have today including the private automobile.
The first trolley buses averaged about 15-18mph just like today's buses.
I could go on.
me: sooooo...wats the point then?
Adron: Same with Seattle, New Orleans, LA, San Francisco, and pretty much every city in the USA.
We had more, for less, at a better quality.
me: so wat happened?
Adron: We have less, for more money, hidden by politics now that we don't control any longer.
Good question. Dogooders, politicans, short sited planning, socialistic ideals...
depends on which city and what area you're talking about.
The largest thing was that the Government started heavily subsidizing automobile travel modes by building tons and tons of roads...
transit agencie couldn't compete with the faux "free" roads.
Because transit had to cover all its costs. The Government reduced auto costs by about 50% by taking over the roads.
me: thats a good point
Adron: Once they bankrupted the transit agencies by that meddling they took them over and formed authorities.
me: on the roads
Adron: yeah.
I mean shit... I can't blame people for driving when the Government all of a sudden pays for half the costs. It's a use it or lose it philosophy then.
me: the driving theing is all about suburubia though
Adron: Either which way... the Govenrment decides for us now. These days transit is popular again but the Government pushed us so heavily toward auto usage they're having a hard time undoing the fuck up they committed in the past 50 years.
sort of.
There are different types of suburbia.
There is streetcar based - and auto based.
The auto based suburbia uses about 3x as much land and is much less efficient.
very very expensive for a city to maintain too.
me: streetcar based? where is that?
Adron: It requires continuing subsidies just for it to exist.
All of eastern Portland... all streetcar based suburbs.
me: if you look at the tax pie chart...transit is unobservable
Adron: In Seattle too. Queen Ann hill, etc.
Those where all streetcar suburbs.
me: most of our taxes go to the military
Adron: That's not true. In Portland it is several hundred million per year.
I'm not sure what else in PDX has that big of a slice.
aside from roads.
Adron: Oh yean.
naw you're right about that.
me: a tax is a tax is a tax
Adron: When looking at federal budget then transit/transportation is really really really small.
We pay more on our national debt than we pay into transit by a multiple of 100x almost.
me: i dont care what level of govt is doing the taxing..its one TAX
Adron: It's disturbing.
Well yeah, I look at it this way too.
But the city has a budget and the feds do.
me: WELL YA know that some people are predicting a future that looks pretty bad ahead of us
Adron: The feds basically take a shit ton of money and leave the cities and states to handle almost ALL of transit and school funding.
me: yea...there are many levels of govt...THATS THE PROBLEM
Adron: Very aware of that.
Sent at 10:50 PM on Sunday
me: i want my fuking health care
Adron: hahaa.
That'll probably be the death knell.
health care is the bane of our existence these days.
Most people that have studied it, say we should be able to have universal coverage for about 2x what Medicare costs us now...
Problem is...
Nobody seems to be able to do anything to make that happen.
me: THE INsurance companies and the fuking drug companies etc
alot of people making alot of money of our getting sick
Adron: It's the whole mess, not just them.
It's the peoples fault too for expecting from insurance a "payment plan" mentality vs an actual "stay healthy" plan.
me: yea..well thats a point
Adron: Europe behaves totally different than us in that sense. They tend to work at staying healthy... we Americans get fat...
me: hey we like MEAT AND POTOTOES
Adron: Then of course European countries are notorious for just cutting off care for millions whenever they need to also... they have tons of budget problems around it.
hahaa. yeah. meat and potatoes.
I gotta write some code... I'll be bacck later.
me: ahh....mankind is a mess.....forever and ever
Adron: good talking with ya... I'll get that transit meetup posted soon.
me: c ya
ill keep bashing ya as hard as i can!
Adron: Oh yea. We ought to get streetcar Fred out for a beer too.
You talked ot him lately?
hahaa. yeah you do that.
me: no...i used to have his number
i dont know if i got it anymore
Adron: I'll see if I do. Iknow Jo or I do somewhere.
me: ok....cya then

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